daggers in L2 classic

[mthl 12]

You guys want buffed AW to kill a tank in two stabs?  

 

 

1.5k-2k ​stabs on robe users seem just fine

[Rizos 1487]

I've played Dagger from c4 to h5 and i must admit on all these old chronicles dagger was never as weak as on classic. U dont have any CC(just 20% slow), but ok its normal, u never had until 77. Problem is all debufs got boosted a lot and ull be just perma stunned or rooted, U die from mage before u get close even if he is stupid enough and doesnt try to fear or slow u. Skill dmg is extremely low, like 50% of what it used to be on interlude, while other warrior skil dmg is boosted. U will be probably surprised when u meet an agressive dorf on 4x lvls. He will do more dmg with stun than you with backstab. Blows miss like never before. Even backstab misses from behind. Deadly blow from behind is like 50% and from front like 20%. I would agree to make the blows miss especially from front, but it should be rng class where u either miss or do high dmg. Here on classic u either miss or do same dmg as dorf stun. I dont even compare it to tyrant/glad dmg. Well warlord does more dmg with aoe skills :D. Where is the point of existing class that does lower dmg than ranged classes(archer/mage), which does have low land rate while archer/dagger has 100%, does have to care not to hit from front, while other classes dont care, isnt tanky, doesnt have crowd controll and needs to get close to deal dmg? In old chronicles it atleast had good physical skills and attack evasion rate + bluff and reliable blow land rate from behind with very high dmg/skill, not like here..

Fact is, back then on c4/c5/interlude Dagger had much better dmg, landed more skills and wasnt so debuff vulnerable like here and didnt look like pseudo tank runing in hvy with shield. I wonder if ppl who are claiming dagger is just fine here, tried to play one here and go through low lvls, check it on pvp,pve etc, and played on old chronicles to compare.

All in all if u are masohist and like to play weak class with cut off balls without any cc in debuff meta, if u wanna play tank with low def and w/o ud/stun/para (thats how i see hvy armor daggers on classic) go on and try out one by urself

 

Edit: If u wonder, maybe daggers are gonna get stronger, balanced and more fun to play, ull be surprised. Go check korean classic 2.0 oly on youtube and ull see how dagger cant even take half cp from bd, before dieing :D. Such a joke class.

[Cyane 230]

"I've played Dagger from c4 to h5 and i must admit on all these old chronicles dagger was never as weak as on classic"

Well, l​et's see...

"U dont have any CC(just 20% slow)"
Yeah, that's true, but not for Plains walker. Plains walker has 20% slow from bleed,  and + 30% slow from Estangle. They stack each other.

"Problem is all debufs got boosted a lot and ull be just perma stunned or rooted, U die from mage before u get close even if he is stupid enough and doesnt try to fear or slow u".

Debuff landrate is high and it affects to all classes, so its not a exclusive disadvantage for dagger classes.
You say also that a dagger dies before he reaches a mage. Thats really far from being true. And even if it was true, dagger classes are not front killers anyway. They are assasins. They are not suppose to sustain damage, much less magic damage since they lack magic resist passives.
BUT in Classic you have tools to deal with them anyway: 
-Switch and trick not only cancels enemies target. It cancels the spells that are being casted by your enemy.
-Hide cancels the spells that are being casted to you too. And it cuts the distance between you and your target.
I think that people is just used to being killed from higher level and geared players.

"Skill dmg is extremely low, like 50% of what it used to be on interlude, while other warrior skil dmg is boosted. U will be probably surprised when u meet an agressive dorf on 4x lvls. He will do more dmg with stun than you with backstab. Blows miss like never before. Even backstab misses from behind. Deadly blow from behind is like 50% and from front like 20%. I would agree to make the blows miss especially from front, but it should be rng class where u either miss or do high dmg. Here on classic u either miss or do same dmg as dorf stun"

A deadly blow (-12 str) from the front has higher damage than a dwarf's hammer crush damage with +12 STR. With full buff, deadly blow doubles the damage of hammer crush. BUT it is true that warrior and archer skills have more chances of landing critical skill (x2) than stabs.
Anyway, consider that stabs are faster too, half-kills are posible, and Backstab ignores CP.
About backstab, deadly blow and mortal blow land rate, check:
https://4gameforum.com/threads/566669/
Chances are higher than what you stated.

 "I dont even compare it to tyrant/glad dmg. Well warlord does more dmg with aoe skills :D"

Backstab's damage is superior to any AoE skill of Warlords against one target.
With no dyes and Top b weapons, backstab's damage is superior to Double sonic slash (with Sonic focus at maximum), and inferior to Triple sonic Slash (with Sonic focus at maximum). 
But with full buff (and +12 STR dyes for gladiator), backstab's damage is superior to Triple sonic Slash (with Sonic focus at maximum).

'Where is the point of existing class that does lower dmg than ranged classes(archer/mage), which does have low land rate while archer/dagger has 100%, does have to care not to hit from front, while other classes dont care, isnt tanky, doesnt have crowd controll and needs to get close to deal dmg? In old chronicles it atleast had good physical skills and attack evasion rate + bluff and reliable blow land rate from behind with very high dmg/skill, not like here.."

I compared and showed the damage and land rate of stabs before.
Damage of double shot is superior without buffs. But with full buff, even with +12 STR for phantom ranger, back stab's damage is superior. It seems that death whisper+dance of fire+ bleesing of queen benefit dagger's damage more than other classes with buffs of p.atk + STR dyes. BUT as a say earlier, critical skills are less often on stabs. 
Consider that fighter enemies have -40% chances of hiting dagger classes with skills while UE lvl 2 is active. So not always 100%, at least against you. 

"I wonder if ppl who are claiming dagger is just fine here, tried to play one here and go through low lvls, check it on pvp,pve etc, and played on old chronicles to compare".

I did.

"All in all if u are masohist and like to play weak class with cut off balls without any cc in debuff meta, if u wanna play tank with low def and w/o ud/stun/para (thats how i see hvy armor daggers on classic) go on and try out one by urself".

Actually, they are better against mages now, since shield can block magic skills too. Evasion against auto-hits doesn't help much on the context of classic.

"If u wonder, maybe daggers are gonna get stronger, balanced and more fun to play, ull be surprised. Go check korean classic 2.0 oly on youtube and ull see how dagger cant even take half cp from bd, before dieing :D. Such a joke class".

In 2.0, probably admins will add Shadow step, which teleports at the enemy's back and cancels target.
Poseidon and other videos show that they work fine for what they are suppose to do better: ganking robe classes. Do not expect daggers to win knight classes face to face.

All my answers have been tested today on test server with characters lvl 58, all skills learned, top B, with self-buff and full buff. I hope it can be informative.

 

[Lin 111]

 

(deleted original post to prevent spam)

​One of the best posts on this forum. Nice info.

[Rizos 1487]

"I've played Dagger from c4 to h5 and i must admit on all these old chronicles dagger was never as weak as on classic"

Well, l​et's see...

"U dont have any CC(just 20% slow)"
Yeah, that's true, but not for Plains walker. Plains walker has 20% slow from bleed,  and + 30% slow from Estangle. They stack each other.

"Problem is all debufs got boosted a lot and ull be just perma stunned or rooted, U die from mage before u get close even if he is stupid enough and doesnt try to fear or slow u".

Debuff landrate is high and it affects to all classes, so its not a exclusive disadvantage for dagger classes.
You say also that a dagger dies before he reaches a mage. Thats really far from being true. And even if it was true, dagger classes are not front killers anyway. They are assasins. They are not suppose to sustain damage, much less magic damage since they lack magic resist passives.
BUT in Classic you have tools to deal with them anyway: 
-Switch and trick not only cancels enemies target. It cancels the spells that are being casted by your enemy.
-Hide cancels the spells that are being casted to you too. And it cuts the distance between you and your target.
I think that people is just used to being killed from higher level and geared players.

"Skill dmg is extremely low, like 50% of what it used to be on interlude, while other warrior skil dmg is boosted. U will be probably surprised when u meet an agressive dorf on 4x lvls. He will do more dmg with stun than you with backstab. Blows miss like never before. Even backstab misses from behind. Deadly blow from behind is like 50% and from front like 20%. I would agree to make the blows miss especially from front, but it should be rng class where u either miss or do high dmg. Here on classic u either miss or do same dmg as dorf stun"

A deadly blow (-12 str) from the front has higher damage than a dwarf's hammer crush damage with +12 STR. With full buff, deadly blow doubles the damage of hammer crush. BUT it is true that warrior and archer skills have more chances of landing critical skill (x2) than stabs.
Anyway, consider that stabs are faster too, half-kills are posible, and Backstab ignores CP.
About backstab, deadly blow and mortal blow land rate, check:
https://4gameforum.com/threads/566669/
Chances are higher than what you stated.

 "I dont even compare it to tyrant/glad dmg. Well warlord does more dmg with aoe skills :D"

Backstab's damage is superior to any AoE skill of Warlords against one target.
With no dyes and Top b weapons, backstab's damage is superior to Double sonic slash (with Sonic focus at maximum), and inferior to Triple sonic Slash (with Sonic focus at maximum). 
But with full buff (and +12 STR dyes for gladiator), backstab's damage is superior to Triple sonic Slash (with Sonic focus at maximum).

'Where is the point of existing class that does lower dmg than ranged classes(archer/mage), which does have low land rate while archer/dagger has 100%, does have to care not to hit from front, while other classes dont care, isnt tanky, doesnt have crowd controll and needs to get close to deal dmg? In old chronicles it atleast had good physical skills and attack evasion rate + bluff and reliable blow land rate from behind with very high dmg/skill, not like here.."

I compared and showed the damage and land rate of stabs before.
Damage of double shot is superior without buffs. But with full buff, even with +12 STR for phantom ranger, back stab's damage is superior. It seems that death whisper+dance of fire+ bleesing of queen benefit dagger's damage more than other classes with buffs of p.atk + STR dyes. BUT as a say earlier, critical skills are less often on stabs. 
Consider that fighter enemies have -40% chances of hiting dagger classes with skills while UE lvl 2 is active. So not always 100%, at least against you. 

"I wonder if ppl who are claiming dagger is just fine here, tried to play one here and go through low lvls, check it on pvp,pve etc, and played on old chronicles to compare".

I did.

"All in all if u are masohist and like to play weak class with cut off balls without any cc in debuff meta, if u wanna play tank with low def and w/o ud/stun/para (thats how i see hvy armor daggers on classic) go on and try out one by urself".

Actually, they are better against mages now, since shield can block magic skills too. Evasion against auto-hits doesn't help much on the context of classic.

"If u wonder, maybe daggers are gonna get stronger, balanced and more fun to play, ull be surprised. Go check korean classic 2.0 oly on youtube and ull see how dagger cant even take half cp from bd, before dieing :D. Such a joke class".

In 2.0, probably admins will add Shadow step, which teleports at the enemy's back and cancels target.
Poseidon and other videos show that they work fine for what they are suppose to do better: ganking robe classes. Do not expect daggers to win knight classes face to face.

All my answers have been tested today on test server with characters lvl 58, all skills learned, top B, with self-buff and full buff. I hope it can be informative.

 

1st of all i wanna see PW casting entangle and then geting close for bleed(bleed has meele range) while hes geting nuker or shoted bu archer. U are just funny

 

2nd  u can interupt with switch trick sure but they have also 500 range not 900,

3rd i tested dmg with tyrant and dagger 52 lvl and dagger makes lower dmg even with backstab from behind than tyrant single target skills, while tyrant can also make ranged skils. Even stun was making smilar dmg. Also tyrant can spam skills nonstop cos has many of them and dont need to w8 for reuse, while dagger cant and must care to get behind target <<-- THIS JUST DOESNT PAY OFF DAGGER SHOULD HAVE HIGHER DMG WITH SINGLE SKILL TO PAY OFF ALL HIS DISADVANTAGES.

4th Debuff landrate is boosted so it affect dagger class a lot cos daggers dont have good debufs while they are beeing debufed nonstop

5th U had to be rly bad dagger player if u think dagger class works good on classic and is balanced. I dont say its bugged, i just say ncsoft made it extremely weak on classic, it does way too low dmg and miss way too much to pay off its disadvantages(meele range skills beind dependant on attack direction, no debufs, low def stats)

6th u compare archer to dagger, they make smilar dmg with skills on full buff while archer can cast em from 900 distance and doesnt matter if he shoot into enemys back and always has 100% chance, and can attack very well when being slowed or rooted and agression doesnt counter archers as much as daggers

7th https://4gameforum.com/threads/566669/

RoFL dagger 74 doing 4k dmg on naked target? @_@ isnt that low? 50% deadly blow land rate from behind? Its pretty much a joke imo. Backstab from behind 70% chance AHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAAH. Was 100% on c5

So basically ur saying dagger is not weaker than for example on c5? I think it doesnt do even close dmg to that

 

[Cyane 230]

1) "while hes geting nuked or shoted bu archer" Not neccesary. You can cast it while your enemy is targeting someone else for example and then gank. It takes 1.5 seconds to cast it with proper buffs. 

2) 500 and 600 range. Casting time: Almost instant. Reload time: 5 and 3 seconds. I think is fine. Was it better on other chronicles?

3) Level 52 with top b weapons and Self buff: backstab vs hurricane have similar damage. With full buff and tyrant with +12 STR against the same target:
-Backstab: 1293
-Hurricane: 940

4) It is true that daggers dont' have good debuffs except Estangle for PW's. However, they have to focus on moving, backstabbing and killing instead of being unable to move while debuffing. Again, daggers have to deal with enemies debuffs with trick, switch, UE (40% to avoid stun) and hide. Tanks can focus on debuffing, daggers have to kill.

5) The damage of backstab is superior with full buff and top B: 1853(backstab) vs 1315 of double shot (or 1600 with +12 STR) on level 60 against the same target. On level 52 they are equal because of low level of critical damage passives and vicious stance. Try in higher levels. Again, take into consideration hide to cut distance. Backstab ignores cp and hit faster. 72.50% is high enough imo. If more land rate is needed, +12 Dex increases it to 82.25%. You can take out Str for pvp since it has little effects on the damage of stabs (as it is showed in the experiment).

However, Double shot has more chances of critical skill and i do agree with you here: When it crits, archer are better damage dealers than daggers despite of having range advantages. But imho it should be nerfed their skill critical rate, not improve backstab damage

"So basically ur saying dagger is not weaker than for example on c5? I think it doesnt do even close dmg to that"

But i never said that. My point is that daggers have enough damage to do their job in classic: ganking robe and archer classes. So they are not broken. And the other point was to show that there were statements you declare about dagger's damage when comparing with other classes that were wrong.

About balance, you are right on arena scenario, 1 vs 1 face to face. There are classes that have little chances. But I think that in Classic the balance relies more on groups of parties vs parties, where every class work better on doing their roles in their party. For example: If you lack debuff resistance, then a prophet in your party could help you with that weakness. Use the surprise factor to gank enemies. Only daggers have hide, use it to your advantage. Wait for the warriors/tanks to stun your target if neccesary before ganking and so on.

[Rizos 1487]

yea go exp with -15 str, well its just waste of time to talk to u. U either never played dagger or pretending stupid. U just proved my point with ur tests. Even on full buff, where dagger should hit much harder than ordinary skills on warriors, he does not much more dmg and his skills have high chance to miss plus as u said its for ganking, who ganks with full buff s/d cat and mystic immunity + box tank with stun? Dorf can  gank u pretty well on such buffs doesnt he?

[Aerwyn 3]

Funny conversation. Compare Gladiator to Dagger, no point in Dagger.

[Accomplishment 7]

Well, If GM puts shadow step for daggers (3ª job skill), I wanna my invicible aura, trance and mana burn.

[Cyane 230]

Well, If GM puts shadow step for daggers (3ª job skill), I wanna my invicible aura, trance and mana burn.

​https://4gameforum.com/threads/541633/

Shadow step is learned at level 50.

The skills that will be added in 3ª job for Adventurer are 

-Focus Power: Increases critical damage (for AW/TH only according to Korea)
-Focus Death: Increases blow chance and critical damage (for AW/PW only according to Korea)
-Focus Chance: Increases critical chance(for PW/TH only according to Korea)

For all dagger classes:

-Lethal Blow: Attacks a target's vital area.

-Critical Wound: Increases critical damage taken by the target by 10%. Increases blows critical chance.

-Reset Movement: Resets the cooldown of Hide and Shadow Step.

PD: The videos that Rizos showed are from TH and AW with 3 job skills being used(Focus power: +60% critical damage from the back and Focus death: +90% critical damage from the back and increases blow chance by 60%). So Rizos, the damage and blow chance you were comparing with are from characters with 3rd class skills of lvl 78+ (no one in classic reached that level yet) that will be added in classic 2.0. So you have no basis for comparison.

[TKvsU 0]

i know what is the reality,but is this the true th

 

[BizQQuiT 351]

too much talk, daggers are doing just fine on our server.

they are deadly as they should be, but also they are very easy to take out and control.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKP41PA3w-g

[Rizos 1487]

Well, If GM puts shadow step for daggers (3ª job skill), I wanna my invicible aura, trance and mana burn.

​https://4gameforum.com/threads/541633/

Shadow step is learned at level 50.

The skills that will be added in 3ª job for Adventurer are 

-Focus Power: Increases critical damage (for AW/TH only according to Korea)
-Focus Death: Increases blow chance and critical damage (for AW/PW only according to Korea)
-Focus Chance: Increases critical chance(for PW/TH only according to Korea)

For all dagger classes:

-Lethal Blow: Attacks a target's vital area.

-Critical Wound: Increases critical damage taken by the target by 10%. Increases blows critical chance.

-Reset Movement: Resets the cooldown of Hide and Shadow Step.

PD: The videos that Rizos showed are from TH and AW with 3 job skills being used(Focus power: +60% critical damage from the back and Focus death: +90% critical damage from the back and increases blow chance by 60%). So Rizos, the damage and blow chance you were comparing with are from characters with 3rd class skills of lvl 78+ (no one in classic reached that level yet) that will be added in classic 2.0. So you have no basis for comparison.

​As i said u never played dagger before. Focus death was around 30% bonus dmg output in fact(it was 90% only for auto attacks, looks like it increased crit p atk of character but didnt multiply skill power). Focus power was around 23%. Th doesnt have blow land rate bonus in focus power skill and yet he lands MUUUUUUUCH MOOORE skills on this movie than here on our server.

Good that im not playing dagger. Keep then weak then and noncompetetive. Better for me - easy meatshield frags

[Cyane 230]

Then you do admit that blow damage is higher due to those skills, so your comparison was not fair and won't be until Classic 2.0.

The only thing that you can keep defending is the lower landrate of blows for th only, because the other two daggers will have focus death. But check Poseidon videos: Treasure hunters are not broken due to their current land rate. It might be lower in Classic, but it is enough.

[Rizos 1487]

Then you do admit that blow damage is higher due to those skills, so your comparison was not fair and won't be until Classic 2.0.

The only thing that you can keep defending is the lower landrate of blows for th only, because the other two daggers will have focus death. But check Poseidon videos: Treasure hunters are not broken due to their current land rate. It might be lower in Classic, but it is enough.

​yes cos its  very hard to x1,3. I guess u finnished ur education before geting this lesson on math