A suggestion for Dagger classes (AW and PW)

[Cyane 230]

I would like to suggest adding Blinding blow (pre-lv. 75) to AW and PW

This is for two reasons:

1) Balance between the three daggers TH, AW, PW.

2) Balance of speed between rogue(dagger) and warrior classes: Tyrant and destroyer rush, and Gladiator sonic move.

---

1) Treasure hunter is probably the best and most popular dagger. His weakness (low dex and lower speed) compared to the other two is compensated with passives and active skills.
-Stats benefit TH: overall more fighter (STR+DEX+CON) stats makes him stronger and more flexible for dyes. +1 for TH
-Passives: He has all passives: Attack speed, critical rate, critical damage. AW has only critical damage. And PW has only critical rate. +2 for TH
-Active skills: PW and AW take benefit from their self-buff race skills only inside olympiad
Hex is the only real advantage of AW in practice, and is a race skill. +1 for AW
Estangle is the only advantage of PW in practice, and is a race skill too. +1 for PW
But TH has both cancel skills: Switch and Trick. +3 for TH
And Dash lv. 2. +4 for TH
Obviously, both AW and PW have other race skills that they can use that TH dont have, but are inneficient on practice either because of slow casting time or high mp required: poison and freezing strike are slow to cast and used hardly ever.
Same with elemental heal which consumes a lot of mp and is slow casting!. Bandage and Poison recovery can be replaced by consumables. 
They are simply not comparable to Dash / two cancel skills / better stats / all passives off TH.

Blinding Blow could give the bonus speed that both PW and AW deserve because of being elves and daggers(+3 for both). The "turn around" reuse time of 30 seg could balance the fact that they miss one of the cancel skills (+4 AW = +4 PW = +4 TH). If it is too OP you can just modify the reuse time.
 
2) Warrior classes have benefit from gap closer skills (range stun for WL and Gladi, destro rush soon) and speed bonuses (destroyer and gladiator) that dont necessary fit to the original conception of their class (slow but tankier warriors). Tyrant was the only agile warrior most close to daggers. The only warrior that is suposse to use only Light armor, with "rogue" masteries equal to archers and daggers. 
Yet Tyrant (rabbit), AW and PW are slower than Gladiator(sonic move). How can a heavy-armored Warrior with Lion Heart  + skill evasion +40% (which doubles the duration of Ultimate evasion lv. 2) and tons of CP/HP be 100% of the time faster than this classes?

A +40 speed bonus of Blinding blow for PW and AW  could give them a posibility to compete with them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im a treasure hunter and im fine with it, so i dont take benefit from this. I just want to see more daggers, posibly dagger cps, and more than just treasure hunters.

Thks for reading!

Edited March 10, 2017 by Cyane

[Rizos 1487]

I support this idea and agree 100% even tho im not dagger. Just sad thing is the skill normally started on 66lvl while dash start on 20+ q_q

[MoDoy 1772]

How can a heavy-armored Warrior with Lion Heart  + skill evasion +40% (which doubles the duration of Ultimate evasion lv. 2)

​nice suggestion, but duelists UE skill gives 4%, not 40%, its just bad descritpion, so its not comparable with ue of daggers

ninja edit: WTH, just tested it and its definitely not just bad description  didnt know that skill is that strong, since no duelist dodged my skill yet

[Rizos 1487]

I would say its atleast 10%+ real chance or even 40, didnt make any good test ever.
Its even 5 min reuse while UE last 30s and 15 min reuse :D

[beatdeath 29]

Shadow Step, Hide, reset, Shadow Step again. I think daggers re fast enough

I see u guys grab the idea of fact we can customize abit compared to official, and now u want to rework all classes. Thats not the point

[San0 2423]

i think you guys are forgetting the part where this will be one more blow for AW and PW meaning that with focus death/chance/power later it might become too strong.

 

[MoDoy 1772]

Shadow Step, Hide, reset, Shadow Step again. I think daggers re fast enough

I see u guys grab the idea of fact we can customize abit compared to official, and now u want to rework all classes. Thats not the point

​

i think you guys are forgetting the part where this will be one more blow for AW and PW meaning that with focus death/chance/power later it might become too strong.

 

​actually, yeah, have to agree, we cannot modify each class like we would like to see them, they will get strong in 2.0, and even if they didnt, maybe they get some low in next updates, i wouldnt customize many things 

[Cyane 230]

i think you guys are forgetting the part where this will be one more blow for AW and PW meaning that with focus death/chance/power later it might become too strong.

 

​Ok. Blinding Blow might be a bad idea then. But would you agree that both AW and PW deserve in the future some kind of "boost"  that could balance them with the rest of the classes until level 75?

[San0 2423]

then on olympiad scenario both of them would be stronger then TH cuz they would have all the self buffs they have + the buffs from npc + the same skills as TH for instance, making it then on olys TH would be the one kinda loosing on that race. also i believe focus death in higher levels will make difference comparing those 2 to TH.

 

[Cyane 230]

then on olympiad scenario both of them would be stronger then TH cuz they would have all the self buffs they have + the buffs from npc + the same skills as TH for instance, making it then on olys TH would be the one kinda loosing on that race. also i believe focus death in higher levels will make difference comparing those 2 to TH.

 

Thks for reply. 

tho Im only talking about pre-75 balance for this classes

So last question: what about the 2) point? I dont see that this 

"Yet Tyrant (rabbit), AW and PW are slower than Gladiator(sonic move). How can a heavy-armored Warrior with Lion Heart  + skill evasion +40% (which doubles the duration of Ultimate evasion lv. 2 and x3 times lower reuse time) and tons of CP/HP be 100% of the time faster than this classes?"

is balanced until lv. 78+. How AW and PW dealt with it (in terms of class balance pre 75 level)?

[San0 2423]

i dont think such thing as total balance exist in this game, still with double hide and double shadow step i dont think dagger gonna have many problms with movement. and also daggers are not supose to fight a duelist on a 1v1 face to face scenario. thats why the dude is called a duelist, he primes on duels. 1v1/1v2 fights. while he has mana to burst enemies down. either u keep not letting him do his stuff or if he does his stuff you most likely gonna die.

if we try to search for perfect balance we will find out the game is all broken, you can wonder why HE can use the lvl 1 dash if other archers dont have it, why dark avenger has a pet and other tanks dont, why necro can have a pet and take advantage of transfer pain and still hit as hard as other mages, why kai the cat has more p attack then other pets of same level, why crafter has a golem and spoiler doesnt. and so on and so on.

you basicly just cant try to balance something from one point of view cuz it will be breaking others. 

imagine now that everyone would go like "ah but dagger have lethals and other classes dont so to balance lets give lethals to other classes also and they can ignore the targets CP so lets make it for everyone the same to be balanced."  what would i do with my life?

Edited September 27, 2016 by San0

[Cyane 230]

Thanks everyone for replies

[Rizos 1487]

then on olympiad scenario both of them would be stronger then TH cuz they would have all the self buffs they have + the buffs from npc + the same skills as TH for instance, making it then on olys TH would be the one kinda loosing on that race. also i believe focus death in higher levels will make difference comparing those 2 to TH.

 

​Sano, NCSoft didnt forget to fck this part up aswell :D. They can still surprize after 10+ years of game. They Changed olympiad bufs so that PW could always have M def and p def self buff and it was imposible for TH to get em from npc. Now on 2.0 you can get m def and p def buff from oly npcand its not like you cant take some useful bufs and need to sacrifice smth to get these, because good dagger bufs are removed (Death whisper no longer exist on oly npc buffer gg). There is some human race fanboy in ncsoft - Necro, Glad, WL, TH - All superior to their other race counterparts especially on Classic chronicles

[Cyane 230]

then on olympiad scenario both of them would be stronger then TH cuz they would have all the self buffs they have + the buffs from npc + the same skills as TH for instance, making it then on olys TH would be the one kinda loosing on that race. also i believe focus death in higher levels will make difference comparing those 2 to TH.

 

​Sano, NCSoft didnt forget to fck this part up aswell :D. They can still surprize after 10+ years of game. They Changed olympiad bufs so that PW could always have M def and p def self buff and it was imposible for TH to get em from npc. Now on 2.0 you can get m def and p def buff from oly npcand its not like you cant take some useful bufs and need to sacrifice smth to get these, because good dagger bufs are removed (Death whisper no longer exist on oly npc buffer gg). There is some human race fanboy in ncsoft - Necro, Glad, WL, TH - All superior to their other race counterparts especially on Classic chronicles

+1 edit: and DA!

[Rizos 1487]

In some ppl opinion HE also but i dont agree with that

[Cyane 230]

I was thinking to make similar post thinking about other fighter classes in the future. For example Paladin, or Temple knight, based on the classes that are less chosen, finding the reasons behind it and suggesting something that could encourage newcomers to not follow from the very beginning advices of a Moderator saying things like "Do not play Daggers, Summoners, Destroer, Paladdin and Temple Knight." http://l2classic.club/forum/index.php?/topic/11583-veteran-player-around/&page=1 leaving just HE and Gladiator as playable options. I think thats not the situation we want for newcomers, we want all classes to be playable for them, and that doesnt mean that they all should have the same skills. I never meant that.

 

[Cyane 230]

In some ppl opinion HE also but i dont agree with that

​in oly sr might be the best cause of self buff and rapid fire = first stun

in the case of archers, its not just the race skills but unique skills that make archers very different to eachother (pre-75) sorry for my english  its difficult to say that one is superior to another even outside of olympiad scenario. im fine with the balance between archers. Maybe pr is a little nerfed for the moment but thats all 

[Rizos 1487]

Archers are fine, every archer is better in different situation. Every archer has some advantages and disadvantages. Thats how other classes balance should look like. Pr is nerfed but still has his special skills that make him better than others in some situations. Interesting how Sano wants to keep server w/o custom things but he "customized" exacly the class what i play (PR). How unlucky i must be :D

[San0 2423]

ppl that play only the strong classes  or the ones who someone tell them are good is ppl who most of them are already starting on wrong foot. i take my case for instance. i know necro and glad are prolly the strongest chars atm but if i would play theres no way i would play something else then a tank, sumoner or bard. i dont rly care whats the strongest, i care for what i enjoy more playing and the ones i know how to run that role. there are no useless chars, there are just some who are a bit stronger then others, and some who are more useful then others. but that is the same on every game.