2.0 dagger damage

[Anytime 556]

2 minutes ago, Rizos said:

How come 3rd class dagger if anytime repirted bug with 3rd class?

[ProGressive 740]

1 hour ago, Rizos said:

How come 3rd class dagger if anytime repirted bug with 3rd class?

Lol so it was 76 withouth prof then

[elfyyy 89]

Daggers are useless in PVE unless killing 1 by 1, they have nothing to really justify suffering to get one to high lvl, other classes do everything better, safer and easier.

All the cool toys are in 3rd class, you need to either have infinite patience to solo or have people to carry your worthless ass to 78+. You would think the rewards are huge for getting to very high level, but they really aren't when you compare with other classes in classic.

The only useful thing they do and other classes can't is luring Dark Lords in cruma for SOPs. 

 

What daggers really need is utility more than anything else. Exactly like summoners when they added the custom buffs.

For example, tweak Sand Bomb numbers so it actually make mages miss some spells, maybe even a small flat % chance to miss(kind of like how UE make people miss some physical skills). From my tests on OBT, -10 M.acc from Sand Bomb(the 3rd class version, 2nd class is -7) is not enough to make a mage with 2 WIT dyes miss, let's not even speak about 3 dyes.(it missed like 2-3% of times with sand bomb on)

This would make them able to evade some skills and make friendly mages evade as well because of their high WIT.

 

Everyone that plays dagger seriously and get to high level don't mind being limited in a lot of things, daggers were always this way. The challenge of making it work despite several constraints is big part of the fun, as long as you have tools to deal with things.

But what they did in classic is take the toolbox and run away with it. 

 

What concerns me is land rate of blows getting fixed on 2.0, so going full CON and heavy armor will not be a thing anymore if you want to hit any skills. In our case here, even with Shadow Step on 2.0 it feels like a big nerf to daggers.

[Poseidon 452]

10 hours ago, elfyyy said:

Daggers are useless in PVE unless killing 1 by 1, they have nothing to really justify suffering to get one to high lvl, other classes do everything better, safer and easier.

All the cool toys are in 3rd class, you need to either have infinite patience to solo or have people to carry your worthless ass to 78+. You would think the rewards are huge for getting to very high level, but they really aren't when you compare with other classes in classic.

The only useful thing they do and other classes can't is luring Dark Lords in cruma for SOPs. 

 

What daggers really need is utility more than anything else. Exactly like summoners when they added the custom buffs.

For example, tweak Sand Bomb numbers so it actually make mages miss some spells, maybe even a small flat % chance to miss(kind of like how UE make people miss some physical skills). From my tests on OBT, -10 M.acc from Sand Bomb(the 3rd class version, 2nd class is -7) is not enough to make a mage with 2 WIT dyes miss, let's not even speak about 3 dyes.(it missed like 2-3% of times with sand bomb on)

This would make them able to evade some skills and make friendly mages evade as well because of their high WIT.

 

Everyone that plays dagger seriously and get to high level don't mind being limited in a lot of things, daggers were always this way. The challenge of making it work despite several constraints is big part of the fun, as long as you have tools to deal with things.

But what they did in classic is take the toolbox and run away with it. 

 

What concerns me is land rate of blows getting fixed on 2.0, so going full CON and heavy armor will not be a thing anymore if you want to hit any skills. In our case here, even with Shadow Step on 2.0 it feels like a big nerf to daggers.

about what is this post? about fixed broken land rate? 

if in 1.5 i felt like a gladiator (w.o. those common dagger's skills), now daggers become playable.

[FinalFen 23]

On 2.09.2017 at 9:42 PM, elfyyy said:

Daggers are useless in PVE unless killing 1 by 1, they have nothing to really justify suffering to get one to high lvl, other classes do everything better, safer and easier.

All the cool toys are in 3rd class, you need to either have infinite patience to solo or have people to carry your worthless ass to 78+. You would think the rewards are huge for getting to very high level, but they really aren't when you compare with other classes in classic.

The only useful thing they do and other classes can't is luring Dark Lords in cruma for SOPs. 

Honestly I don't see almost any difference in PvE potential between Daggers and most of bruisers/archers. I mean Tyrant/Glad/Archers - they all can't efficiently AoE and need to be carried for the most part (and usually aren't very wellcomed in AoE parties unless you have a CP). When it comes to daggers, they are actually using the highest DPS weapon type in the game so definitely they are better/faster then most solo hitters especially if you take  a BD into the party (your crit rate combined with dance of fire starts to obliterate most of mobs whose hp isnt x3+). Furthermore if you have a full buff party, daggers can simply switch to bows, the dps drop compared to a regular archer isn't that big and they will definitely do a very acceptable dps.

Won't comment on the dagger PvP balance since I have no clue how it looks/should look on the classic servers, but I'll just say that daggers sweet spot was always the not full buff, un-orginised PvP so this should probably  be the playing ground fo daggers PvP potential analysis.

[Rizos 1487]

14 hours ago, FinalFen said:

Honestly I don't see almost any difference in PvE potential between Daggers and most of bruisers/archers. I mean Tyrant/Glad/Archers - they all can't efficiently AoE and need to be carried for the most part (and usually aren't very wellcomed in AoE parties unless you have a CP). When it comes to daggers, they are actually using the highest DPS weapon type in the game so definitely they are better/faster then most solo hitters especially if you take  a BD into the party (your crit rate combined with dance of fire starts to obliterate most of mobs whose hp isnt x3+). Furthermore if you have a full buff party, daggers can simply switch to bows, the dps drop compared to a regular archer isn't that big and they will definitely do a very acceptable dps.

Won't comment on the dagger PvP balance since I have no clue how it looks/should look on the classic servers, but I'll just say that daggers sweet spot was always the not full buff, un-orginised PvP so this should probably  be the playing ground fo daggers PvP potential analysis.

Tyrant cant efectively aoe? AHAHAHA good joke bro. Its best non-mage aoe char. Has much better aoe dps than wl. Nice try bro nice try

[FinalFen 23]

Maybe if you get 5 recharges on his back  When it comes to mele AoE it's almost never about AoE DPS but mana efficiency. WL will probably tripple Tyrant's AoE dmg when using same ammount of mana (dont remember exact numbers).

Edited September 4, 2017 by FinalFen

[Cyane 230]

5 minutes ago, FinalFen said:

Maybe if you get 5 recharges on his back  When it comes to mele AoE it's almost never about AoE DPS but mana efficiency. WL will probably tripple Tyrant's AoE dmg when using same ammount of mana (dont remember exact numbers).

With 1 ee is enough in ab for example. He mained tyrant he knows what he is talking about man. Comparing them with archers was a mistake. Tyrants are very welcome in aoe

[FinalFen 23]

Don't know man, maybe you'r right but the data sure doesn't confirm that

70 lvl Tyrant:

Force Burst - 99 mp - 475 power (5 power per 1 MP)

Force Storm - 85 mp - 475 power (5,5 power per 1 MP)

 

70 lvl Warlord:

Whirlwind - 71 mp - 2439 power (34 power per 1 MP)

ThunderStorm - 102 mp - 1854 power (and stun) ( 18 power per 1 MP)

Quick Spear - 112 mp - 2726 power (and stun)  (24 power per 1 MP)

 

That's 5-7 times better mana efficiency when doing AoE trains speaking for Warlord. To give you a clearer example: If WL to finish a  big train needs 3-4 mana pools (own mana pool and then being recharged) that means that Tyrant would need his mana pool to be completely refilled 15-28 times. Sure if you get 5 rechargers on your back you can do AoE trains as a Tyrant but even then you don't have the stun :f

[Anytime 556]

Tyrant on decent lvl can clean ABG trains as the only DD. Maybe he need 3-4 Recharges while killing.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Anytime

[FinalFen 23]

But is it realistical ? I feel that it's easier to find an AoE party/group as a dagger then to it is to find 4 recharges and make efficient trains as Tyrant  It's like saying that PP with a bow can solo farm Kariks. Well ye if he really wants to, he can kill them but is it rly worth it ?

I would even risk saying that it would be faster/more efficient to farm trains on a dwarf with spinning slasher then with the Tyrant's AoE 

[woot123 16]

when i play tyrant, we usually farming abg with 2 tyrant 1 gladia and 1 recharge w/o problem...if u wanna use force burst too was better bring one more recharger 

[Rizos 1487]

11 hours ago, FinalFen said:

Maybe if you get 5 recharges on his back  When it comes to mele AoE it's almost never about AoE DPS but mana efficiency. WL will probably tripple Tyrant's AoE dmg when using same ammount of mana (dont remember exact numbers).

I plvled my pt with tyrant 66 and +10 c fists in abg on our server. Only 1 dd  and 2 recharge  boxes, 2 train pullers and 6 afk leechers and we did insane exp almosts ame as full pt does, so ur info about mana efficiency kinda sux and u have no idea about aoe dps. I needed around 1500-2000 mana to kill solo whole train on hill spot that 2 pullers were bringing. And i was using also force burst to kill it as fast as possible. Ifu wanna safe mana u use only force storm but u loose dps.

Tyrant scales totalyy different with p atk on aoe skills than wl lol. On wl u can go with no grade spear and u do almost same dmg. On tyrant skill power ona oe almost doesnt matter. you can keep lvl 1 aoe and if you want to keep high mana efficiency. He is mostly about p atk so u go + str and good weapon. You make more dmg per aoe skil than WL does and skills cost less mp. Dont coment tyrant skills if u never played tyrant plz

Edited September 5, 2017 by Rizos

[ProGressive 740]

@Stiba007 Last time your whole party died from knoriks havent seen you in forum 3 weeks. Should we bring knoriks again?

[Anytime 556]

7 minutes ago, ProGressive said:

@Stiba007 Last time your whole party died from knoriks havent seen you in forum 3 weeks. Should we bring knoriks again?

wrong topic noob

Edited September 5, 2017 by Anytime

[88262500 27]

19 minutes ago, Anytime said:

wrong topic noob

some people just like show their brainlessness。。。

btw    i test dagger in 2.0....not bad solo in tower with bdXDDDDDDDDDD

Edited September 5, 2017 by 88262500

[Stiba007 225]

9 minutes ago, 88262500 said:

some people just like show their brainlessness。。。

btw    i test dagger in 2.0....not bad solo in tower with bdXDDDDDDDDDD

... and their love to me.  I like it.

 

29 minutes ago, Anytime said:

wrong topic noob

with wrong info. 

[Anytime 556]

30 minutes ago, 88262500 said:

some people just like show their brainlessness。。。

btw    i test dagger in 2.0....not bad solo in tower with bdXDDDDDDDDDD

#1 - Ingame-Name or STFU

#2 - on wich floor you tested it?

Edited September 5, 2017 by Anytime

[Reaper 84]

3 hours ago, FinalFen said:

Don't know man, maybe you'r right but the data sure doesn't confirm that

70 lvl Tyrant:

Force Burst - 99 mp - 475 power (5 power per 1 MP)

Force Storm - 85 mp - 475 power (5,5 power per 1 MP)

70 lvl Warlord:

Whirlwind - 71 mp - 2439 power (34 power per 1 MP)

ThunderStorm - 102 mp - 1854 power (and stun) ( 18 power per 1 MP)

Quick Spear - 112 mp - 2726 power (and stun)  (24 power per 1 MP)

That's 5-7 times better mana efficiency when doing AoE trains speaking for Warlord. To give you a clearer example: If WL to finish a  big train needs 3-4 mana pools (own mana pool and then being recharged) that means that Tyrant would need his mana pool to be completely refilled 15-28 times. Sure if you get 5 rechargers on your back you can do AoE trains as a Tyrant but even then you don't have the stun :f

Thats not how you count it, because tyrant AoE skills are mostly about P atk, hell, good players learn only very first lvls of those skills and dont waste more SP on them to save it for other skills while they have low MP consumption, while dmg is very comparable with maxed lvl of skill with same equip  Not to say every second train you can lower yourself to use zealot which gives you 50% clarity effect on skills, so you barely waste mp to kill those trains

Overall, since destroyer normal AoE (auto attacking while vamping everything back) is not really common way on classic anymore (and its kind of hardly doable), tyrant is one of the best AoE classes in game

[88262500 27]

27 minutes ago, Anytime said:

#1 - Ingame-Name or STFU

#2 - on wich floor you tested it?

turnip，：），floor7.floor9 are ok，and need a alive bd on floor 11，lv76 char 6Fp set

Edited September 5, 2017 by 88262500

[FinalFen 23]

2 hours ago, Rizos said:

Tyrant scales totalyy different with p atk on aoe skills than wl lol. On wl u can go with no grade spear and u do almost same dmg. On tyrant skill power ona oe almost doesnt matter. you can keep lvl 1 aoe and if you want to keep high mana efficiency. He is mostly about p atk so u go + str and good weapon. You make more dmg per aoe skil than WL does and skills cost less mp. Dont coment tyrant skills if u never played tyrant plz

Thanks a lot for this explanation. After what you said, my explanation sure makes no sense  Had no idea that they made different dmg scalling on WL and Tyrant in Classic.

Lots of usefull tips here guys, thanks a lot. Now I like my class decission even more

Edited September 5, 2017 by FinalFen

[ProGressive 740]

2 hours ago, 88262500 said:

turnip，：），floor7.floor9 are ok，and need a alive bd on floor 11，lv76 char 6Fp set

Offcourse its ok when mobs are from Interlude.

What u said about brainlessing?