Questioning Summoners

[Sensei 460]

Hello, my dearest community,

It's been a while in our new patch, which brought a couple of changes to many classes whether it was nerfs/boosts/skills added etc.
Buuuuut.....there is this one particular class that has increased in popularity since it received a tremendous boost and in the eyes of many ppl, including me, is almost game-breaking (especially in olympiad).

Elemental Master

A class that has been in top tier of oly farmers since the introduction of olympiad.
What the new patch did to this class is basically boost their dmg by 30% , something that was justified as reverting back to how they were supposed to be.
By official standards i suppose?
Because by official standards, Fear lock is still a thing, while here it was changed (and most of us agreed it was ok).

But let me ask you, was that 30% boost of Summoners that necessary?
Let's look into it a bit.

I'm going to use the skills of Magnus the Unicorn buffed by NPC of olympiad and master's (lv.77) buffs
on a lv.80 Shillien Elder with:
Weapon with Super Sigel p.def Rune 13
Bw light set +8
Majestic Necklace +5 unsealed / Majestic Earring +5 unsealed / core 3 / orfen 3 / aq 3
Baium Talisman
Buffs: Bless Body, Magic Barrier, Shield and rest are irrelevant for this example  - -  (no Berserker Spirit)

Magnus the Unicorn uses on target Whiplash (the stun skill) for 2,512 damage.
Then proceeds to cast Tidal Wave for 4,437 damage, essentially 2-shotting a char of close to 6k HP and over 1,1k p.def and around 1k m.def.
We can agree that at least one of those skills crit'ed.

As a player who is heavily invested in oly, I've been seeing in discord chats/private messages some serious damage texts; ppl that I know their gear, from ponies that I could never justify in the past, yet by current meta are acceptable(?). People who have been playing for years here and see their chars get 2shotted or even 1shotted in cases of 80 lvl summoners are reconsidering their life choices and the result of this fiesta is apparent on hero voice, discord chats, pms, etc. The most frustrating part of it all is that the class does not require some huge gear investment to be effective.

So let's raise some questions.
Given those pet boosts, is this something we should accept as reasonable?
Should the pet stats or Skill Power of pet skills get reduced? Should they all have the chance to crit?
Was this change really important for a class that was already one of the top farmers to begin with?
Should Aqua Swirl be nerfed? (getting crits of it for 1,4k on top of all that dmg adds extra salt)

And last but not least, do we want olympiad to end up a place of carebears playing only ponies?
 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Sensei

[MoDoy 1769]

so lets get some things straight

22 minutes ago, Sensei said:

It's been a while in our new patch, which brought a couple of changes to many classes whether it was nerfs/boosts/skills added etc.
Buuuuut.....there is this one particular class that has increased in popularity since it received a tremendous boost and in the eyes of many ppl, including me, is almost game-breaking (especially in olympiad).

"especially in olympiad"? where else its actually gamebreaking except olympiad?  

23 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Elemental Master

A class that has been in top tier of oly farmers since the introduction of olympiad.
What the new patch did to this class is basically boost their dmg by 30% , something that was justified as reverting back to how they were supposed to be.
By official standards i suppose?
Because by official standards, Fear lock is still a thing, while here it was changed (and most of us agreed it was ok).

yes, by official standards this limitation was removed once ppl got overgeared and since summons dont scale with items almost at all, they decided to remove it. As i said, dont try to bring "well, fear is now not by official", because then ppl can shove you in the face these kind of videos and give you real reason why to cry about summoners, because right now summoners have heavily reduced magic damage on their nukes, ES has heavily reduced crit chance on hydro pump and warlock binding cubic barely lands compared to official and i can guarantee you that any of those "official standards" would be way worse than boosting damage on summons by 30% (which is by the way also official standard)

26 minutes ago, Sensei said:

But let me ask you, was that 30% boost of Summoners that necessary?
Let's look into it a bit.

I'm going to use the skills of Magnus the Unicorn buffed by NPC of olympiad and master's (lv.77) buffs
on a lv.80 Shillien Elder with:
Weapon with Super Sigel p.def Rune 13
Bw light set +8
Majestic Necklace +5 unsealed / Majestic Earring +5 unsealed / core 3 / orfen 3 / aq 3
Baium Talisman
Buffs: Bless Body, Magic Barrier, Shield and rest are irrelevant for this example  - -  (no Berserker Spirit)

Magnus the Unicorn uses on target Tidal Wave (the stun skill) for 2,512 damage.
Then proceeds to cast Hydro Screw for 4,437 damage, essentially 2-shotting a char of close to 6k HP and over 1,1k p.def and around 1k m.def.
We can agree that both of those skills crit'ed.

made your character on test server, made normal 77 lvl summoner on which you apparently dont need gear (not like it affects anything unless you are 80 lvl, but you specified in it that master is 77 lvl), well, guess what? damage was nowhere close to what you described, 1.6k vs 2.5k and 1.6k*2 = 3.2k vs 4.4k, does any1 see the difference here?
also we cannot agree both of those skills crited, because stun from pony cannot crit, it can overhit, but thats big difference

31 minutes ago, Sensei said:

As a player who is heavily invested in oly, I've been seeing in discord chats/private messages some serious damage texts; ppl that I know their gear, from ponies that I could never justify in the past, yet by current meta are acceptable(?). People who have been playing for years here and see their chars get 2shotted or even 1shotted in cases of 80 lvl summoners are reconsidering their life choices and the result of this fiesta is apparent on hero voice, discord chats, pms, etc. The most frustrating part of it all is that the class does not require some huge gear investment to be effective.

So let's raise some questions.
Given those pet boosts, is this something we should accept as reasonable?
Should the pet stats or Skill Power of pet skills get reduced? Should they all have the chance to crit?
Was this change really important for a class that was already one of the top farmers to begin with?

summons ARE supposed to be strong, especially on non buffed non geared character, because their scaling is terrible, the pet on olympiad buffs has 4K p atk and 4.5k m atk, what exact damage you expect? coz i am pretty sure you can get like 4-5k M atk on mage in full buffs and you hit very similar to double m def (like 2k M def), so yes, they will be hitting strong, especially when you are without buffs (just to prove it, you know very well how "strong" pet hits in normal pvp, guess why, yep, coz it doesnt scale)

35 minutes ago, Sensei said:

And last but not least, do we want olympiad to end up a place of carebears playing only ponies?
 

yes, i am also missing times when there were only DAs in olympiad, which are like 3x more forgiving than already forgiving class like ES, not to say even after getting nerfed and summoners boosted, summoners still couldnt claim #1 spot as top olympiad farmers and unlike DAs, which are actually useful in outside pvp, for summoners olympiad is pretty much only place they can be used (ok, harassing randoms on mount can be also counted)

[Sensei 460]

@MoDoy you believe that I lie about the dmg above? what exactly?
I don't think you do.
If my "story" doesnt make sense to you, maybe Semen's 7k does?
or natsuyama eating
 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Sensei

[MoDoy 1769]

Just now, Sensei said:

@MoDoy you believe that I lie about the dmg above? what exactly?
I don't think you do.

you belive something is wrong on the test i did? if so, can you point it out? because i did everything like you described, so where exactly is the missing damage? maybe your memory doesnt go right or you simply lied about some conditions just to prove your point ;d 

Edited August 16, 2020 by MoDoy

[Sensei 460]

Just now, MoDoy said:

you belive something is wrong on the test i did? if so, can you point it out? because i did everything like you described, so where exactly is the missing damage? maybe your memory doesnt go right or you simply lied about some conditions just to prove your point ;d 

I'm sure that even u are not dumb enough to think i would use an overexaggerated story to backup a point.
There,i gave u 2 examples other than me, what about them?

[MoDoy 1769]

3 minutes ago, Sensei said:

@MoDoy you believe that I lie about the dmg above? what exactly?
I don't think you do.
If my "story" doesnt make sense to you, maybe Semen's 7k does?
or natsuyama eating
 

so? there is not known environment for both of those cases, but i could bet something both of them had berserker spirit on them, as far as i remember semen didnt have magic barrier when he ate 7k and he got it from pony 80 with overenchanted gear, so in those conditions, i dont see how he wouldnt be able to eat 3.5k normal magic nuke from pony

once again, can you point out what was wrong in video test i provided in controlled environment you gave spec to? coz i did everything you said how it was and the numbers just dont add up ;d

[iAxZp 366]

           NOT NEARLY CLOSE TO DMG a pony make in open world. seems to me we need boost summoners. also nuke dmg seems like double and criting often af

Edited August 16, 2020 by iAxZp

[iAxZp 366]

9 minutes ago, MoDoy said:

so? there is not known environment for both of those cases, but i could bet something both of them had berserker spirit on them, as far as i remember semen didnt have magic barrier when he ate 7k and he got it from pony 80 with overenchanted gear, so in those conditions, i dont see how he wouldnt be able to eat 3.5k normal magic nuke from pony

once again, can you point out what was wrong in video test i provided in controlled environment you gave spec to? coz i did everything you said how it was and the numbers just dont add up ;d

maj nec unsealed+5 zaken1 core orfen baium3 zerk buffed no m.barrier for 7k semens case

[Sensei 460]

it's not a math quiz to see if numbers add up.
It's SHOULD THAT DMG BE ALLOWED goddamit?

[iAxZp 366]

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

it's not a math quiz to see if numbers add up.
It's SHOULD THAT DMG BE ALLOWED goddamit?

ofc it should

[MoDoy 1769]

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

it's not a math quiz to see if numbers add up.
It's SHOULD THAT DMG BE ALLOWED goddamit?

so you think damage on video i showed is too high for pet? you really think 1.5k stun skill and 1.6k hydro pump is too much in that scenario?

[Sensei 460]

Just now, MoDoy said:

so you think damage on video i showed is too high for pet? you really think 1.5k stun skill and 1.6k hydro pump is too much in that scenario?

test server is supposed to be a representation of live server, im more worried of how dmg scales there and here by what you showed.

[MoDoy 1769]

3 minutes ago, Sensei said:

test server is supposed to be a representation of live server, im more worried of how dmg scales there and here by what you showed.

am i really supposed to go get 77 lvl ES on live server and compare it with our EE 80 lvl (i dont think there is much difference considering passive skills with SE) and show damage on live server? will there be any other wish you would love to have after seeing numbers in that test or you will be satisfied with those conditions when seeing dmg wont be what you described?

[iPlanar 15]

I Just wonna say, thay u Cant suggest only on fraps from off cuz if u doesnt know(but im a player Who played and fight VS this guys) on this fraps u doesnt knows equip and lvl on chars. 

So, Just wonna say that Spin/iromena/gunsalez/vivid is top pack of CL of RMT and they get on fucking 80rbs unbalanced exp, so, for example, spin was 84lvl,all anothers in his party was 82+ and opposition had only 80(81 in Best case) lvls. U Need to keep it in mind. 

About equip also, this 4 ponys got full boost and full equip, but opposition in 70% got lower equip. 

But, yea, pony was OP after they get 77magnus and BE stronger in every patch(when system of elemnts was added in game it was fucking crazy input dmg and u controlled Pet). 

And also on offi it was a lot of boosters like Pvp Red fruit(that can add 5% to damage in pvp or - 5% of all input damage), fucking unbalanced transforms, dolls, potions and etc, etc, etc. Also it was some 10000% unbalanced passive skills for 80+ lvls, for example if u reach 84 u got +25% in pvp damage!! And if u reach for example 81 it was only +3 or 5%.

So,just forgot About offi sh1ts and try to find balance on l2classic.club

Ty for attention

Edited August 16, 2020 by iPlanar

[Donkihot 114]

I find this topic is funny. Because half of those ponies are yours.(not specifically your Sensei, just top clans who has hero) And dont tell me it is not, everyone has ES box who farms points in oly from randoms, and then feed your hero.  Log pony guys, farm points, feed *insert name here* 
like wtf this complain is about even? Yea dmg might be high, etc, but I dont see many ES running around in open world. The only thing I care actually is that they can control pet while they are on mount, which is stupid. Where is no way u can kill ES in open world pvp he does that.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Donkihot

[Sensei 460]

33 minutes ago, Donkihot said:

I find this topic is funny. Because half of those ponies are yours.(not specifically your Sensei, just top clans who has hero) And dont tell me it is not, everyone has ES box who farms points in oly from randoms, and then feed your hero.  Log pony guys, farm points, feed *insert name here* 
like wtf this complain is about even? Yea dmg might be high, etc, but I dont see many ES running around in open world. The only thing I care actually is that they can control pet while they are on mount, which is stupid. Where is no way u can kill ES in open world pvp he does that.

You know whats funny?  
That in the screenshot I posted not a single of those ponies belongs to a top clan. I see macaco boxes and some randoms.
Ofc their purpose is to feed, as it always has been. However the reason behind their increase is the real problem.
If you see 9 ponies in that screen, it will be 15 in 1 month, because most people are just mentally insecure to play their original class and just want the dopamine effect of an easy win when they suck all their "career" in club.
Outside rare encounters with 1 random ES annoying your xp is "more impactful" than olympiad? This just tells me that you see things on a very surface level.

[Sensei 460]

not to mention that with so many chars 80 lvl, i can name a few counters to random ES's running around
But let's stick to the point

Edited August 16, 2020 by Sensei

[Donkihot 114]

12 minutes ago, Sensei said:

You know whats funny?  
That in the screenshot I posted not a single of those ponies belongs to a top clan. I see macaco boxes and some randoms.
Ofc their purpose is to feed, as it always has been. However the reason behind their increase is the real problem.
If you see 9 ponies in that screen, it will be 15 in 1 month, because most people are just mentally insecure to play their original class and just want the dopamine effect of an easy win when they suck all their "career" in club.
Outside rare encounters with 1 random ES annoying your xp is "more impactful" than olympiad? This just tells me that you see things on a very surface level.

Well, I'll admit, u have a point here. But do you think people will level ES to 77 just to play Oly with it, and on work days they will play on main and not do oly? will they join sieges with ponies? or 9v9 pvp ? Idk, I didnt see any summoner's cp yet. Maybe it will be meta soon if numbers will jump. If we started this topic about, when GM's should balance other classes as well, just for sake of fun. Fix ES, fix Daggers,Fix arcers?(saw they had some problems with auto attacks? not sure tho) Boost others mages a lil I guess? I havent seen any sorc or sps for like years man  Also fix god damn shreks with their blusters, ofc nobody playes mages when u have heavy tank with 15k hp with stuns, speed of flash and same dmg as mages from range.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Donkihot

[Sensei 460]

2 minutes ago, Donkihot said:

Well, I'll admit, u have a point here. But do you think people will level ES to 77 just to play Oly with it, and on work days they will play on main and not do oly? will they join sieges with ponies? or 9v9 pvp ? Idk, I didnt see any summoner's cp yet. Maybe it will be meta soon if numbers will jump. If we started this topic about, when GM's should balance other classes as well, just for sake of fun. Fix ES, fix Daggers,Fix arcers?(saw they had some problems with auto attacks? not sure tho) Boost others mages a lil I guess? I havent seen any sorc or sps for like years man

Yes, that is exactly the world we live in  Sieges and pvp, no, they will usually go on their main, but if the situation stays as is, I can definitely see Pony cps forming soon.
about the classes you say at the end, I don't know if you refer to them individually or as cps, but the reason i picked ES is that the boost it received is turning the game towards a bad direction, imho.
 

[VILEN 12]

Every time I read posts of this nature, I almost cry with laughter.
Always someone, something not to like.
Dark Avenger - Fear and Cancel + pet
Phantom Ranger - CDL
Daggers - double damage with skill
Summoners - strong damage from skills.
Tyrants - cd spam skills
Shilen Knight - Paralysis and Cubes
Now we have strengthened the Eve Knight and will soon see a new post on this matter.

Question!
Doesn't it bother anyone that pets don't get bonuses from runes, epics, + sets ?!

You will never have an uber class for Olympus, pvp!
There is a huge difference in self and full buff gameplay!

Stop crying!

[Donkihot 114]

I just dont think it is healthy for server health, then ppl want to play mages/daggers and they cant, since the meta is es/tyrant/pr etc. 

[Donkihot 114]

1 minute ago, VILEN said:

Every time I read posts of this nature, I almost cry with laughter.
Always someone, something not to like.
Dark Avenger - Fear and Cancel + pet
Phantom Ranger - CDL
Daggers - double damage with skill
Summoners - strong damage from skills.
Tyrants - cd spam skills
Shilen Knight - Paralysis and Cubes
Now we have strengthened the Eve Knight and will soon see a new post on this matter.

Question!
Doesn't it bother anyone that pets don't get bonuses from runes, epics, + sets ?!

You will never have an uber class for Olympus, pvp!
There is a huge difference in self and full buff gameplay!

Stop crying!

Nobody is crying about things I highlighted  When did u see last post about ppl crying because daggers are strong? LOL. Nobody is crying about SK, because there is DA, and now DA isnt meta anymore, expect Oly, because u have puri song. PR archers, it is like 50/50 They can be really strong or really dead by 1 random AOE.

When u see whole server populated with same classses it means something is wrong. 
I see new ppl, who level out of meta classes, at lvl 40-60 ~ cause Im levling box atm my self. But I Dont see them on 70+ then I log my main. That means they see that meta isnt TH so they just re roll to tyr or any other class
Same for me, I was passionate to level mage, I really love mages especially SPS.  I leveled one, but.. no way Im going to play SPS if he has same dmg as 40 lvl summoner pet at lvl 74

[VILEN 12]

1 minute ago, Donkihot said:

I just dont think it is healthy for server health, then ppl want to play mages/daggers and they cant, since the meta is es/tyrant/pr etc. 

People play whoever they want.

[Sensei 460]

@VILEN are you ES?  asking for a friend

[VILEN 12]

Just now, Sensei said:

@VILEN are you ES?  asking for a friend

ES/SK/DA/GH