Regarding Nightshade/Seraphin/Queen

[Rizos 1487]

37 minutes ago, Lafi said:

What a new info for me.. maybe i'm playing different server... 10 power, pfffff 

 

summoner nukes have 750 range

sorry If i wasnt precise enought i thought rounding 9 to 10 would be fine in this case

[Ovid 17]

9 hours ago, Lafi said:

summoner nukes have 750 range

Sorry, there I was referring to MoH's range, not summoner nukes.

This whole situation regarding nuke skill power makes you think of the Phantom Summoner Death Spike, when its power was lower than Spellhowler/Necro Death Spike. Although by the time High Five came, PS's DS had the same power as the other two mentioned before. But that was because PS didn't really have a place in parties so NC Soft tried to make him more nuker-ish in the end.

Now regarding classic, I don't know why the huge love for ES Seraphim party buffs. I guess NC Soft still didn't learn to balance stuff in their own outdated game. But for our server I would suggest adding some more levels (if not existing already) for the beast SS skill. It's kind of boring to summon 30 shots every time.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ovid

[Armagheton 13]

19 hours ago, MoDoy said:

20-30% crit dmg boost is meh? in which universe? coz AQ which gives 15% crit damage seems pretty good to me :d

it should be crit rate not dmg .... Queen doesn't give crit dmg at all  ( At least G.Traslate didn't decided to change things up on it's own )

BoQ Provvide +25% P.Crit Chance and 20% P.Def 

GoQ provvide +10%P.Att and +3 accuracy

Also Buff don't rise up with summon lvl it's always 25% ( only the 3rd buff scale )

Source: https://l2central.info/classic/Призвать_Королеву_Кошек_-_Чернокнижник

Edited May 28, 2020 by Armagheton

[Armagheton 13]

19 hours ago, Ovid said:

When they will reintroduce the utility summons, they can just lower the mcrit rate and matk numbers of the Seraphim buffs - make them like 15% mcrit rate and 10% matk. Maybe even lower that 30% mp regen to 20%. 

As for Spectral Master's Nightshade, the could make the heal be group with higher HP cost (for the summon, it costs HP, not MP) and somewhat higher cooldown or raise its combat abilities.

 

Summoners have always been a pain to balance in l2 since the game didn't manage them well. The biggest issue is that summoners aren't tied to gear like other classes. As soon as they get the Final Summons there is a huge power spike and improving your gear have low to moderate impact on the overall power.

With Servitor Share and a Nuke l2 devs tried to fix this, but in the end it didn't turn out well since the extra dmg on the summons is negligible and the nuke doesn't fit the summoner play style at all ( that, btw, was born to be a debuffer in the early chronicles )

As for your suggestion i think it will make most of the summoner unhappy in the long run. At the start they every1 will be like: "Oh cool we got back our utility summon!!!" then after few week i can already see the daily complaining post on how the summons buff got gutted or changed to accommodate the server balance.

As for the Nightshade suggestion... the SM isn't an healer and shouldn't jump into that field. Out of the 3 summoners the SM it's the only one that stayed pure to his nature of DD/Debuffer. Imo the best would be to trade the Mass Curse of Shade skill with single target stun similar in landrate and dmg to PK Shield stun, that would push the Nightshade more on the utility off-tank path going also in the same direction of Non-Classic L2 where Wynn Shade got AOE Taunt + AOE Stun.

[Armagheton 13]

17 hours ago, Rizos said:

AQ is giving 10% noob, stop living in interlude. Also pony bufs look much more broken especially cooldown reduction, how much it gives 15%? its pure 15% dpm buff for mages that run in +12 wit setup, about Arcana lord, ok crit dmg is guci but archers/daggers/destros/w/e benefit from crit dmg buff on pvp is right now literally trash compared to mages so doesnt matter how much u boost trash, still gona remain trash like 0 x 99999 is still 0 while op mages geting such boost if op af

CD reduction is 10% and doesn't rise up with level. Source: https://l2central.info/classic/Призвать_Серафима_-_Мастер_Стихий

Queen, like i said, shouldn't give Crit dmg but Crit Rate, which every1 cap anyway with othell rune and buffs ... that's why i said it's meh compared to EM buffs. Source: https://l2central.info/classic/Призвать_Королеву_Кошек_-_Чернокнижник

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Armagheton

[Ovid 17]

38 minutes ago, Armagheton said:

Summoners have always been a pain to balance in l2 since the game didn't manage them well. The biggest issue is that summoners aren't tied to gear like other classes. As soon as they get the Final Summons there is a huge power spike and improving your gear have low to moderate impact on the overall power.

With Servitor Share and a Nuke l2 devs tried to fix this, but in the end it didn't turn out well since the extra dmg on the summons is negligible and the nuke doesn't fit the summoner play style at all (that, btw, was born to be a debuffer in the early chronicles)

I remember that all summoners in GoD (2012) wore light armor (because of the 90% cast speed bug from Light Armor Mastery giving you max cast spd) and used bows for the high physical attack combined with Servitor Share, sharing % of master stats. I don't know if this would work the same here. If it does, maybe Spectral Master and Arcana Lord might benefit more, since EM has the pony buffs.

 

38 minutes ago, Armagheton said:

As for your suggestion i think it will make most of the summoner unhappy in the long run. At the start they every1 will be like: "Oh cool we got back our utility summon!!!" then after few week i can already see the daily complaining post on how the summons buff got gutted or changed to accommodate the server balance.

I would gladly trade some % in order to receive those summons again. And come on, making it 25% mcrit -> 15% mcrit and 30% matk -> 10% matk (maybe 15%) is not that bad, seriously.

 

38 minutes ago, Armagheton said:

As for the Nightshade suggestion... the SM isn't an healer and shouldn't jump into that field. Out of the 3 summoners the SM it's the only one that stayed pure to his nature of DD/Debuffer. Imo the best would be to trade the Mass Curse of Shade skill with single target stun similar in landrate and dmg to PK Shield stun, that would push the Nightshade more on the utility off-tank path going also in the same direction of Non-Classic L2 where Wynn Shade got AOE Taunt + AOE Stun.

That Nightshade stun suggestion might actually be a nice thing. There isn't much left if you want to give Nightshade a party buff. The only thing I can think of is: Gift of Shade 40% HP and Blessing of Shade 40% MP, along wth Curse of Shade with -pdef, -mdef and some stun of sorts.

 

23 minutes ago, Armagheton said:

CD reduction is 10% and doesn't rise up with level. Source: https://l2central.info/classic/Призвать_Серафима_-_Мастер_Стихий

Queen, like i said, shouldn't give Crit dmg but Crit Rate, which every1 cap anyway with othell rune and buffs ... that's why i said it's meh compared to EM buffs. Source: https://l2central.info/classic/Призвать_Королеву_Кошек_-_Чернокнижник

They could rework it a bit by making it give 10% crit damage and 35% pdef. Also for the other buff 12% M and P Atk,, 10 M/P accuracy and evasion.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ovid

[Lafi 100]

5 hours ago, Ovid said:

...and used bows for the high physical attack combined with Servitor Share, sharing % of master stats. I don't know if this would work the same here. If it does, maybe Spectral Master and Arcana Lord might benefit more, since EM has the pony buffs.

- servitor share here is still bugged but benefit from bow isn't that much
- summoners Weapon Mastery - Casting Spd. is decreased when using a bow or a spear.
- all summoners have 77 summons with same stats ---> differences = oly matches, self buff pvp

[Rizos 1487]

8 hours ago, Armagheton said:

it should be crit rate not dmg .... Queen doesn't give crit dmg at all  ( At least G.Traslate didn't decided to change things up on it's own )

BoQ Provvide +25% P.Crit Chance and 20% P.Def 

GoQ provvide +10%P.Att and +3 accuracy

Also Buff don't rise up with summon lvl it's always 25% ( only the 3rd buff scale )

Source: https://l2central.info/classic/Призвать_Королеву_Кошек_-_Чернокнижник

Для членов группы на 2 мин. шанс Физ. Крит. Атк. +25%, сила Физ. Крит. Атк. +20%.

25% crit rate 20% crit dmg

  And btw i would take 10% cooldown reduction on mage anytime over 30% m atk (10% cdr gives bigger dpm bonus than 30% m atk), i dont understand how ppl think 25% crit rate is op or 30% m atk is op but 10% cdr is not. Try to use super feoh on mage (50% bonus), its so little boost that its hard to notice difference, its like 15 m crit in stats

6 hours ago, Ovid said:

I remember that all summoners in GoD (2012) wore light armor (because of the 90% cast speed bug from Light Armor Mastery giving you max cast spd) and used bows for the high physical attack combined with Servitor Share, sharing % of master stats. I don't know if this would work the same here. If it does, maybe Spectral Master and Arcana Lord might benefit more, since EM has the pony buffs.

 

I would gladly trade some % in order to receive those summons again. And come on, making it 25% mcrit -> 15% mcrit and 30% matk -> 10% matk (maybe 15%) is not that bad, seriously.

 

That Nightshade stun suggestion might actually be a nice thing. There isn't much left if you want to give Nightshade a party buff. The only thing I can think of is: Gift of Shade 40% HP and Blessing of Shade 40% MP, along wth Curse of Shade with -pdef, -mdef and some stun of sorts.

 

They could rework it a bit by making it give 10% crit damage and 35% pdef. Also for the other buff 12% M and P Atk,, 10 M/P accuracy and evasion.

I like duscussion about kitty bufs and custimizing some p def bonus when in fact it doesnt have on official, also 35% p def value, you must be crazy, pala buff is 15% and its op to such extent every1 exp paladins.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Rizos

[Ovid 17]

Oh I didn't know 15% pdef would mean so much, and that 35% pdef is crazy.   Then I would rethink it: 15% crit damage, 7% pdef ( or somewhere around those numbers).

10% magic skill reuse is so good. Paired with Song of Renewal it's pure crazyness.

I guess it was only worth in GoD to be a summoner with bow and servitor share, to empower your summons' patk.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ovid

[Rizos 1487]

29 minutes ago, Ovid said:

Oh I didn't know 15% pdef would mean so much, and that 35% pdef is crazy.   Then I would rethink it: 15% crit damage, 7% pdef ( or somewhere around those numbers).

10% magic skill reuse is so good. Paired with Song of Renewal it's pure crazyness.

I guess it was only worth in GoD to be a summoner with bow and servitor share, to empower your summons' patk.

Why would you even add p def to cat buf? If u wanted to add any def for some reason, more reasonable would be to add m def to counter pony buff

[Ovid 17]

1 hour ago, Rizos said:

Why would you even add p def to cat buf? If u wanted to add any def for some reason, more reasonable would be to add m def to counter pony buff

I was thinking they would add some new jewels later. But mdef seems a good choice too.

[Armagheton 13]

@MoDoy @Rizos

My bad then G.Traslate failed on me.

 

@Ovid

GoD it's the lamest patch to get any reference, it's where summoner where broken beyoud any limits and could kill any class in a stuck/knock chain also those buff seems whay too much and out of context especially for Spectral Master. 

 

In a dream world where whe could change skill as we want i would go honestly like this:

EM need to be holded back compared to the other 2 summoners and, as Elf, it should specialise on def and utility; also it should fit more in a Mage CP. An healty set will be something like

Seraph

- GoS: MP + 15% - Skill CD -5%

- BoS: HP +15% - Incoming Heal +10%

- 3rd skill: Greaty increase HP and MP regeneration ability for a short time ( talking about a small X% HP/MP heal where X goes up with lvl ) 

 

AL need some love, but out of all summoners i see them as the most balanced. They should fit in both mage and warrior CP a cool set would be:

Queen

- GoQ: Cast.S +10% - M.Crit +5%

- BoQ: P.Crit Chance and DMG +10% - A.Speed +5%

- 3rd skill: For a short time increase the resistance to debuff on the selected target by X% ( where X goes up with lvl ) 

 

 

SM need some love like AL and D.Elfs they are supposted to be powerhorse pointing all on pure power:

 -GoS: M.Atk + 20%, M.Critical Damage+5% but Mp Consumption +10%

 -BoS: P.Att +10%, P.Skill dmg +5% but P.Def -5%

 -CoS: Aggro the selected target with X power and decrease his resistance to debuff by Y% ( where X and Y would go up with lvl ) 

 

[Ovid 17]

6 minutes ago, Armagheton said:

@MoDoy @Rizos

My bad then G.Traslate failed on me.

 

@Ovid

GoD it's the lamest patch to get any reference, it's where summoner where broken beyoud any limits and could kill any class in a stuck/knock chain also those buff seems whay too much and out of context especially for Spectral Master. 

 

In a dream world where whe could change skill as we want i would go honestly like this:

EM need to be holded back compared to the other 2 summoners and, as Elf, it should specialise on def and utility; also it should fit more in a Mage CP. An healty set will be something like

Seraph

- GoS: MP + 15% - Skill CD -5%

- BoS: HP +15% - Incoming Heal +10%

- 3rd skill: Greaty increase HP and MP regeneration ability for a short time ( talking about a small X% HP/MP heal where X goes up with lvl ) 

 

AL need some love, but out of all summoners i see them as the most balanced. They should fit in both mage and warrior CP a cool set would be:

Queen

- GoQ: Cast.S +10% - M.Crit +5%

- BoQ: P.Crit Chance and DMG +10% - A.Speed +5%

- 3rd skill: For a short time increase the resistance to debuff on the selected target by X% ( where X goes up with lvl ) 

 

 

SM need some love like AL and D.Elfs they are supposted to be powerhorse pointing all on pure power:

 -GoS: M.Atk + 20%, M.Critical Damage+5% but Mp Consumption +10%

 -BoS: P.Att +10%, P.Skill dmg +5% but P.Def -5%

 -CoS: Aggro the selected target with X power and decrease his resistance to debuff by Y% ( where X and Y would go up with lvl ) 

 

I like your suggestions. But why punish SM with +10% mana cost and -5% pdef?

[Armagheton 13]

8 minutes ago, Ovid said:

I like your suggestions. But why punish SM with +10% mana cost and -5% pdef?

All tied to the race theme i guess.

Elf prioritize life over everything, that's why pure defence buff and heal,

Humans are a balanced race that would not sacrifice something only for power.

D.Elfs are the one who gived up on everything for pure power. SM got that "cursed attire" tied to him, and that's why, i guess, he gets debuff instead of buffs in the game. Compared to the other 2 he gets more stronger buffs ( to compesate for his lame state now ) but he also gets a trade-off for that power

Edited May 29, 2020 by Armagheton

[Ovid 17]

16 minutes ago, Armagheton said:

D.Elfs are the one who gived up on everything for pure power. SM got that "cursed attire" tied to him, and that's why, i guess, he gets debuff instead of buffs in the game. Compared to the other 2 he gets more stronger buffs ( to compesate for his lame state now ) but he also gets a trade-off for that power

Lore wise, dark elves were once elves, but from a different "tribe" (as to say). They were the brown elves who dared to learn dark magic in order to fight the humans. This led to a civil war between elves and brown elves. The elves cast a curse (which created the Sea of Spores; that's why it's sealed with magic now) to banish the brown elves. The latter hid in a cave for some generations, started worshiping Shilen and their skin turned to gray-blue. 

I can see why the SM needs a bit of punishment for the power they got, but I have always hated that stupid "Contract payment" dot skill you got for summoning Soulless. If you want to keep the downside, at least make it +5% mana cost and -3% pdef/mdef OR even better, keep it +10% mana cost -5% pdef/mdef and make it like an aura which will affect the summoner and all surrounding enemies in a 1000 range circle (and 5s linger when outside the radius).

And if we're talking about race themes, then I think they should bring back the racial passives from GoD. Some were pretty nice, some needed a bit of rework.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Ovid

[Rizos 1487]

2 hours ago, Armagheton said:

@MoDoy @Rizos

My bad then G.Traslate failed on me.

 

@Ovid

GoD it's the lamest patch to get any reference, it's where summoner where broken beyoud any limits and could kill any class in a stuck/knock chain also those buff seems whay too much and out of context especially for Spectral Master. 

 

In a dream world where whe could change skill as we want i would go honestly like this:

EM need to be holded back compared to the other 2 summoners and, as Elf, it should specialise on def and utility; also it should fit more in a Mage CP. An healty set will be something like

Seraph

- GoS: MP + 15% - Skill CD -5%

- BoS: HP +15% - Incoming Heal +10%

- 3rd skill: Greaty increase HP and MP regeneration ability for a short time ( talking about a small X% HP/MP heal where X goes up with lvl ) 

 

AL need some love, but out of all summoners i see them as the most balanced. They should fit in both mage and warrior CP a cool set would be:

Queen

- GoQ: Cast.S +10% - M.Crit +5%

- BoQ: P.Crit Chance and DMG +10% - A.Speed +5%

- 3rd skill: For a short time increase the resistance to debuff on the selected target by X% ( where X goes up with lvl ) 

 

 

SM need some love like AL and D.Elfs they are supposted to be powerhorse pointing all on pure power:

 -GoS: M.Atk + 20%, M.Critical Damage+5% but Mp Consumption +10%

 -BoS: P.Att +10%, P.Skill dmg +5% but P.Def -5%

 -CoS: Aggro the selected target with X power and decrease his resistance to debuff by Y% ( where X and Y would go up with lvl ) 

 

Better to get additional dd than summoner with such bufs imo unless the summoner itself could make also good dmg. Lets imagine 2 dd + tank + summoner or 3 dd + tank setups. Is it worth to boost these 2 dds 5 or 10% or get 3rd dd?. By this u can only make ppl box summoner to give buff and kick out of pt

[Amorfius 35]

ну уже видно что мне как суммонеру - ждать патча не стоит 
раньше порезали лвл  магнусу
видите ли он был высокого лвл  на него не проходили дебафы и так далее
сейчас игроки все 79 + лвл  

но магнусу  лвл и не вернули ...

потом дали новые скилы

80 хоть и неплохой скил но далек от идеала
лук не подходит для пве  пвп  - так как скорость каста - сразу режется в 2-3 раза

 дали 1 профессия нюки  ---последние порезали  

жду патча и тут на форуме уже ..... война ,,,,
 что ничего нам давать не стоит ..
а если и давать то какое то подобие 

подождем  ... в будущих патчах должны сильно апнуть лучников.
во нытья будет ....
 

 

Well, it’s already clear that I, as a summoner, should not wait for a patch
used to cut lvl to magnus
you see he was high lvl on him did not pass debuffs and so on
Now players are all 79 + lvl

but they didn’t return Magnus LVL ...

then gave new skills

80, although a good skill, but far from ideal
the onion is not suitable for pvp pvp - since the casting speed is immediately cut 2-3 times

 gave 1 profession nukes --- last cut

I'm waiting for the patch and here on the forum already ..... war ,,,,
 that it’s not worth giving us anything ..
and if you give something like that

let's wait ... in future patches the archers should be very upset.
whining will be ....

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Amorfius

[Armagheton 13]

7 hours ago, Ovid said:

Lore wise, dark elves were once elves, but from a different "tribe" (as to say). They were the brown elves who dared to learn dark magic in order to fight the humans. This led to a civil war between elves and brown elves. The elves cast a curse (which created the Sea of Spores; that's why it's sealed with magic now) to banish the brown elves. The latter hid in a cave for some generations, started worshiping Shilen and their skin turned to gray-blue. 

I can see why the SM needs a bit of punishment for the power they got, but I have always hated that stupid "Contract payment" dot skill you got for summoning Soulless. If you want to keep the downside, at least make it +5% mana cost and -3% pdef/mdef OR even better, keep it +10% mana cost -5% pdef/mdef and make it like an aura which will affect the summoner and all surrounding enemies in a 1000 range circle (and 5s linger when outside the radius).

And if we're talking about race themes, then I think they should bring back the racial passives from GoD. Some were pretty nice, some needed a bit of rework.

Like i said that where buffs i would make if it was me, but i doubt any GM will ever take into consideration those totally out of context and resource skill. 

 

5 hours ago, Rizos said:

Better to get additional dd than summoner with such bufs imo unless the summoner itself could make also good dmg. Lets imagine 2 dd + tank + summoner or 3 dd + tank setups. Is it worth to boost these 2 dds 5 or 10% or get 3rd dd?. By this u can only make ppl box summoner to give buff and kick out of pt

In a full CP all of those buffs will have considerable power both on PVE and PVP also all those buffs should last 2 min, so are more like D/S than actual buffs. Said so it's not like they will get implemented it was just me giving my 2 cents on what i would like to see to bring them out of the barerly viable zone w/o breaking them now.

 

1 hour ago, Amorfius said:

ну уже видно что мне как суммонеру - ждать патча не стоит 
раньше порезали лвл  магнусу
видите ли он был высокого лвл  на него не проходили дебавы и так далее
сейчас игроки все 79 + лвл  

но магнусу  лвл и не вернули ...

потом дали новые скилы

80 хоть и неплохой скил но далек от идеала
лук не подходит для пве  пвп  - так как скорость каста - сразу режется в 2-3 раза

 дали 1 профессия нюки  ---последние порезали  

жду патча и тут на форуме уже ..... война ,,,,
 что ничего нам давать не стоит ..
а если и давать то какое то подобие 

подождем  ... в будущих патчах должны сильно апнуть лучников.
во нытья будет ....
 

 

Well, it’s already clear that I, as a summoner, should not wait for a patch
used to cut lvl to magnus
you see he was a high lvl on him did not pass debates and so on
Now players are all 79 + lvl

but they didn’t return Magnus LVL ...

then gave new skills

80, although a good skill, but far from ideal
the onion is not suitable for pvp pvp - since the casting speed is immediately cut 2-3 times

 gave 1 profession nukes --- last cut

I'm waiting for the patch and here on the forum already ..... war ,,,,
 that it’s not worth giving us anything ..
and if you give something like that

let's wait ... in future patches the archers should be very upset.
whining will be ....

 

I get your point but the ES it's the reason why all summoners got nerfed. If those summons will eventually land with no change at all now not only he will oblitarate the other 2 summoners in term of power and utility but will also destroy the fragile game balance this server has. I'm also a fan of "things should go like the official" and if that's the case than this is simply not the time for those summons to be here.

[Amorfius 35]

баланс да ? 
страх ... 

имбаланс

порезать и сильно
урон ножей ... 

некромант - разделение урона. пет .  урон .

везде можно прицепиться и терзать терзать терзать..
2 года суммонер был ниже нуля и тут они дождались своего часа  и все ...
суммонеры страдайте дальше 
 ибо будем дальше вас резать 

 

balance yes?
fear ...

imbalance

cut and hard
knife damage ...

Necromancer - damage sharing. pet. damage.

everywhere you can cling and torment torment torment ..
For 2 years, the summoner was below zero

and then they waited in the wings and that's all ...
summoners suffer further
 because we will continue to cut you

Edited May 29, 2020 by Amorfius