Suggestion: Separating the fourth group into two different groups

[MoDoy 1772]

Its actually easier to level up an archer/dagger now than any other class, cause you can just spam raid bosses. 

lel

Talking crap is free, thanks for proving it, but we already knew it.

How many Raids did you see between lvls 63-76? How many of them killable in a reasonable time? well, yes, now you get that you didnt think much before talking that mouth or shot these fingers on the keyboard.

No problem, we are humans.

​even gargoyle and rahha are killable in reasonable time, but even with those u cannot go more than 67

 

[pako 33]

bump... can we get ANY response from admins please?

[Stiba007 225]

Yes, just add limited, every char max 3 times change!

[Haibara 23]

@Koll @Kse @San0 

any gm, can give an opinion please ? dont wanna @ your names everyday :p. please. 

 

[MoDoy 1772]

not gonna happen, better go xp

[Koll 1233]

@Koll @Kse @San0 

any gm, can give an opinion please ? dont wanna @ your names everyday :p. please. 

 

​Hello. Sorry, yes will check and give answer in next 2 days.

[Haibara 23]

@Koll @Kse @San0 

any gm, can give an opinion please ? dont wanna @ your names everyday :p. please. 

 

​Hello. Sorry, yes will check and give answer in next 2 days.

​

[San0 2415]

Ok guys. we were talking now about this. we gonna move this poll around and make announcement in game about this so more ppl will come to vote and we get a more global opinion.

This poll will stay open for 2 more weeks till December 26th.

After this poll is closed, if the option to make changes win, we gonna give a 2 week warning for everyone who are now on one of the groups and wants to change for the other to have the last chance to make this change, and after this 2 weeks groups will be adjusted.

If the option to not change it wins. nothing will change.

 

Poll will now be moved to General discussion, sticky and added to announcements.

[Koll 1233]

Sorry for not giving answer in this 2 days. It was busy days. 

Right now we are planing to invite more players to this discussion by making announcements and etc. Will see which one will win.

[Cyane 230]

So i have been thinking about all you wrote, and tried to make a summary:

1) less donations for class changes since there would be less options (true)
2) more people crying for new changes on tiers (true)

3) On PVE: raid boss farm 'compensates' aoe farm ? lets focus here. i think this is false
4) On PVP: old dagger skill 'compensates'  new high lvl daggers ? lets focus here i think this is not necessary true

1 and 2 are disadvantages of the suggestion, dont have much to argue there. But 3 and 4 are more debatable

3) It means that daggers can assist on raid bosses, so they have this option to farm. But the thing is that all fighters have opportunities to assist raid bosses, meaning that daggers dont have an advantage over them at farming, while warriors can also farm raid bosses (in general, as long as they have bows) and aoe too, while daggers can not.

I can not compare xp/sp/drop rate per week between daily AoE farm vs raid bosses farm because i dont have much experience on that field. I think @DheMoN knows a lot more

Also the fact that there have been limited raid bosses (up to lvl 65 only... and some rb were added lately) all this time, means that 67/68+ daggers hadnt this option, but warriors have aoed all this time. Warriors already have exploited this advantages over daggers.

4) New daggers can learn how to use l2c daggers in just a few weeks practicing and watching videos. The debuff system of classic is already known by people who have played warriors all this time and changed to daggers. If we talk about people who have never played daggers in any chronicle, then you are right, they would be lost, but i think that in general this is not the case since L2 is a 12+ year old game.

Also the fact that in general, new daggers will be higher lvl than old daggers, which will give them better opportunities on olympiad/pvp, specially against debuffs.

So i still think that the current system should be changed

[MoDoy 1772]

4) New daggers can learn how to use l2c daggers in just a few weeks practicing and watching videos. The debuff system of classic is already known by people who have played warriors all this time and changed to daggers. If we talk about people who have never played daggers in any chronicle, then you are right, they would be lost, but i think that in general this is not the case since L2 is a 12+ year old game.

Also the fact that in general, new daggers will be higher lvl than old daggers, which will give them better opportunities on olympiad/pvp, specially against debuffs.

So i still think that the current system should be changed

​i agree with your 3 points, but not fully with 4th, its not as easy u might think to get used to class in few weeks for every situation, or its not like someone who played dagger before will get used to it in few days, we tried to do with rizos some duels, both classes which we mained for long years (i played as pw, he played as aw), and all i can say, it was so clumsy and we werent used to skill combos, next targeting was surprisingly hard to time and for sure it would take some time, not just few days or week to master dagger again

tho i dont really care, i am archer so this change wont touch me, but because of the 2nd point i voted for no, because soon there will be 10 tiers and then whole system will be useless, coz most of the ppl wont be able to switch to another class  

[Rizos 1487]

I still keep my opinion about this system changes, and actually i see many ppl liked it.

I like your idea up to some degree, i also agree with modoy's arguments, especially the one taht every1 gonna ask then to move his class to other tier cos of zilions of reasons. Also i see 1 downside of this. I noticed already ppl complaining they started to play mages and now they are bored with it and they want to try out something else. They would change to tyrant/glad/archer and make warrior/archer cp but they simply cant and they bring argument like "wtf i exped my char 1 year, i made 70 lvl and not its totaly useless i can trash it cos i cant class change it to anything usefil". Now look at cloudyq CP, they changed from wariors to archers, it might be unfair ye to other archers cos his cp is around 70-74 cos exped as meeles, but this change will cause same problem for wariors as now mages have, warriors wil become trash class in class change sustem and will be able to change only to other warrior class (which is not what ppl are looking for, except some glad <-> wl rerolls).

Anyway i Vote for yes, i think arguments for change are stronger than against, cos abusing class system change to outlvl oponents by faster exping classes is not good/fair thing for me, expesially when we consider upcoming olympiad. Daggers definitely have bigger problem to exp than warriors. I have idea that would probably solve problem of ppl that just want to chaneg cp type cos dont like their class ( for example mages) and didnt intend abuse faster exp and class change. You could set some exp costs to class change into higher tier. For example if mage 70 decides to switch to warrior loose 2 lvl and becomes 68 warrior, if he decides to change for tank, he loose 4 lvls and becomes 66 lvl tank and  if he wants to be PP he loose 7 lvls and become 63. Ofcourse it wouldnt work the different way around and pp 63 who rerol to mage wouldnt become 70 . Just an example numbers, you could adjust it if u like this idea.

​

[datplays 191]

To be 100% fair, dagger should be not able to roll from any class. Why? Bcoz daggers dont farm aoe parties, and any other class does, so thereotically even 1st or 2nd tier should be not able to roll to dagger, bcoz they farm faster.

Other side, why warrior cant roll into tank/sws/bd they farm the same way, in same parties.

About mages it should be clear, they re aoe queens, even way easier soloers than warriors, even if they lose mana. U pick easy way - u deal with it.

Yet Rizos idea is worth to take look at. But it would work till like 65 lvl, past 65 lvl farm is starting to be pain, and i doubt anybody for example lvl 70 will sacrifice 2-7 lvl to roll. But i like this idea anyway.

[Cyane 230]

I liked Rizos idea too. I dont see any inconveniences if exp costs are adjusted properly 

[RoolBack 150]

I like your idea up to some degree, i also agree with modoy's arguments, especially the one taht every1 gonna ask then to move his class to other tier cos of zilions of reasons. Also i see 1 downside of this. I noticed already ppl complaining they started to play mages and now they are bored with it and they want to try out something else. They would change to tyrant/glad/archer and make warrior/archer cp but they simply cant and they bring argument like "wtf i exped my char 1 year, i made 70 lvl and not its totaly useless i can trash it cos i cant class change it to anything usefil". Now look at cloudyq CP, they changed from wariors to archers, it might be unfair ye to other archers cos his cp is around 70-74 cos exped as meeles, but this change will cause same problem for wariors as now mages have, warriors wil become trash class in class change sustem and will be able to change only to other warrior class (which is not what ppl are looking for, except some glad <-> wl rerolls).

Anyway i Vote for yes, i think arguments for change are stronger than against, cos abusing class system change to outlvl oponents by faster exping classes is not good/fair thing for me, expesially when we consider upcoming olympiad. Daggers definitely have bigger problem to exp than warriors. I have idea that would probably solve problem of ppl that just want to chaneg cp type cos dont like their class ( for example mages) and didnt intend abuse faster exp and class change. You could set some exp costs to class change into higher tier. For example if mage 70 decides to switch to warrior loose 2 lvl and becomes 68 warrior, if he decides to change for tank, he loose 4 lvls and becomes 66 lvl tank and  if he wants to be PP he loose 7 lvls and become 63. Ofcourse it wouldnt work the different way around and pp 63 who rerol to mage wouldnt become 70 . Just an example numbers, you could adjust it if u like this idea.

P.S. I wouldnt be myself if i didnt add coment about PR mentioned by cyane in his post. PR doesnt have aoe, thats right, but on offi he has other tool to use on pve. Unfortunately on our server its customized because some ppl dont like it on pvp (ofc i dont agree with that, because most of classes have their strong skills that are not nerfed, like gladi banana, da fear, wl 900 range stun, necro transfer pain/anchor etc, and dunno what is the reason to nerf 1 strong skill and leave other strong classes unchanged. Furthermore majorty of server is against changing any class skills at all. Source: http://l2classic.club/forum/index.php?/topic/13148-server-custom-changes/). IF PR main PVP/PVE skill is fixed it doesnt need to be in different tier than warriors in my opinion.

+1

[BeNicePls 39]

To be 100% fair, dagger should be not able to roll from any class. Why? Bcoz daggers dont farm aoe parties, and any other class does, so thereotically even 1st or 2nd tier should be not able to roll to dagger, bcoz they farm faster.

Other side, why warrior cant roll into tank/sws/bd they farm the same way, in same parties.

About mages it should be clear, they re aoe queens, even way easier soloers than warriors, even if they lose mana. U pick easy way - u deal with it.

Yet Rizos idea is worth to take look at. But it would work till like 65 lvl, past 65 lvl farm is starting to be pain, and i doubt anybody for example lvl 70 will sacrifice 2-7 lvl to roll. But i like this idea anyway.

​+1

Imo Daggers class should stay in a solo group, not even with archers, archers can solo xp to much better than daggers and archers can go inside AOE parties helping with aoe hits skill, Daggers can not.

Daggers should be like Spoiler/Warmisth, you can change to other classes but u can not change to dagger from other classes. Because any other class (besides spoiler/crafter) is easier or to much easier to xp than dagger.

 

+1 for the idea of changing class from group 6 to 5, 5 to 4, ...

I like that idea about jumping from lvl 6 group to lvl 5 with a XP Cost, but the xp cost should be not low. Should be very big and maybe with some caps that Admins should study to make the best way.

I wish the best to Admins, they have the luck, the knownledge, the fairplay, ... all the needed to choose the best option/s about this suggestion we are discussing.

GL, HF.
 

[fishfood 92]

I think rogues should stay in the same group (Archer/dagger) but the aoe fighers like tyrant,gladi etc have their own group

[MoDoy 1772]

To be 100% fair, dagger should be not able to roll from any class. Why? Bcoz daggers dont farm aoe parties, and any other class does, so thereotically even 1st or 2nd tier should be not able to roll to dagger, bcoz they farm faster.

Other side, why warrior cant roll into tank/sws/bd they farm the same way, in same parties.

About mages it should be clear, they re aoe queens, even way easier soloers than warriors, even if they lose mana. U pick easy way - u deal with it.

Yet Rizos idea is worth to take look at. But it would work till like 65 lvl, past 65 lvl farm is starting to be pain, and i doubt anybody for example lvl 70 will sacrifice 2-7 lvl to roll. But i like this idea anyway.

​+1

Imo Daggers class should stay in a solo group, not even with archers, archers can solo xp to much better than daggers and archers can go inside AOE parties helping with aoe hits skill, Daggers can not.

Daggers should be like Spoiler/Warmisth, you can change to other classes but u can not change to dagger from other classes. Because any other class (besides spoiler/crafter) is easier or to much easier to xp than dagger.

​archers can go inside aoe pts, i died a little after reading this, archers in aoe pts are as useful as daggers making trains

idk how it works after lvl 60, but both daggers and spoil/warsmith have dagger/blunt mastery, which pretty much allows them to spam kills during farming, so idk if their xp is that extremely slower, i wonder if someone tried to solo xp dagger with stigma on his back, maybe he could pull nice xp/buff, definitely worth testing

about rizos idea, yeah, its nice, but i guess it would be too complicated to make this table totally fair, u need to set up all combinations class->class xp reduction, which has pretty many options, so i doubt it could be constructed fairly

[BeNicePls 39]

I think rogues should stay in the same group (Archer/dagger) but the aoe fighers like tyrant,gladi etc have their own group

​(I go to say my opinion, no problem fishfood)

Ok, so i make an Archer and after i change to dagger. do you think this is fair?

Archer:

900 Range, bow passive, rapid shot lvl 2.

You can solo easy with a prophet,

You dont have to move continuosly to hit mobs like a dagger because u have 900 range.

Mobs dont touch you or almost dont touch, so with few hp pots u can farm easy. You can go pl set, +12str-15con dyes, low p.def from pl set no matters so much since u wont take many hits from mobs.

Archer is wellcome in AOE parties, since he can hit with AOE Skill, isnt a big machine of AOE Xp but is helpfull, more than daggers.

Dagger:

700 Range, bow passive till lvl 35 ( crap ), rapid shot lvl 1. to much worse than archer.

If you go Melee set up, u need VR buff or tons of hp pots, (If you go with SE Buffer, u dont have Berseker, you can get haste from pots but u need $$. Not like Archer + PP). If you go with SE + PP, you are needing 1 more buffer box than Archer + pp.

Very Hardly can farm with pl set at higher lvls, u need heavy set (so you loose +4str from pl set, archer doesnt).

If you go +12 str -15 con dyes to kill faster and go same xp dyes set up to try get so faster xp like archer can get, well, tell me when game arrive the moment when you visite Doom Knights or some mobs than stun, debuff like this ones. You are continuosly getting hits from mobs since ur first hit since you are on melee set up, so you are exposed to debuffs like stun faster than archer, so to much exposed to get delay of stun/debuffs, more chance of dead, slower xp.

So +str -con dyes set up + melee = slower xp than archer.

 

And most important of all,  these lines from here up that can seem little thing, are translated in tons of hours / days / ... of difference in the game with respect to an archer to get same lvl.

Irony ON. Ok, lets try build a fair world with these fair choices. Archer and daggers in same group. Irony OFF

 

@fishfood you can discuss, i am waiting ur argues, if u say something, thats based in some facts, thoughts, reasons, ...

Can you tell us ?

 

Sorry for my english.

[MoDoy 1772]

I think rogues should stay in the same group (Archer/dagger) but the aoe fighers like tyrant,gladi etc have their own group

Archer:

Archer is wellcome in AOE parties, since he can hit with AOE Skill, isnt a big machine of AOE Xp but is helpfull, more than daggers.

@fishfood you can discuss, i am waiting ur argues, if u say something, thats based in some facts, thoughts, reasons, ...

Can you tell us ?

 

Sorry for my english.

​kappa? if u go with SE, u have stigma which is insane boost for melee hits and together with vampiric rage u can regen some hp from hits, not much, but something, when u go for doom knights every dagger has either switch or trick, so u can cancel the stun, also dagger mastery is permanently up, allowing u to use skills, also u can use shield, so some hits will be blocked, not saying daggers are xping better than archers, but come on guys, i doubt any of you tried some harder setups how to xp with dagger, at different lvls different class can have beast xp if u find good spot with right buffers

[BeNicePls 39]

 

idk how it works after lvl 60, but both daggers and spoil/warsmith have dagger/blunt mastery, which pretty much allows them to spam kills during farming, so idk if their xp is that extremely slower, i wonder if someone tried to solo xp dagger with stigma on his back, maybe he could pull nice xp/buff, definitely worth testing

​With all my respect Modoy, dont feel offense.

if you died a bit because "archer can go/is wellcome in aoe xp farm",

i completely rofl for some minuts with this. Na, kidding, no problem, just for the fun.

all comments/info are wellcome, thanks for saying this, but it doesnt worth.

Reasons, you have to wait for dagger mastery spam, and anyway the bonus is crap.

you spam 7 skills and u get no mana. and the xp bost is from getting 52k xp, to get 56k xp, if you could check, you could see that isnt working.

 

You say about stigma each mob, you are old player with high lvl char, you know about how many mobs we have to kill to make lvl 70+.

Lets talk about 1 DD + 1 buffer box.

Are we comparing debuff stigma on each mob(imagine if you just have 1 pc and you have SE on other client ...), not talking about SE doesnt have haste, berseker

vs

just pp buffs on archer each 20 minuts

and how fast xp each one of them? muahahhahahahahah

 

We keep talking.

[gfbot 207]

Its actually easier to level up an archer/dagger now than any other class, cause you can just spam raid bosses. 

lel

Talking crap is free, thanks for proving it, but we already knew it.

How many Raids did you see between lvls 63-76? How many of them killable in a reasonable time? well, yes, now you get that you didnt think much before opening that mouth or shoting these fingers on the keyboard.

No problem, we are humans.

​Was farming raids with archers at lvl 67. 

You only need 1 party to do it. Its not hard. 

Dont get so triggered. Please ask your doctor about venlafaxine. 

[MoDoy 1772]

 

idk how it works after lvl 60, but both daggers and spoil/warsmith have dagger/blunt mastery, which pretty much allows them to spam kills during farming, so idk if their xp is that extremely slower, i wonder if someone tried to solo xp dagger with stigma on his back, maybe he could pull nice xp/buff, definitely worth testing

​With all my respect Modoy, dont feel offense.

if you died a bit because "archer can go/is wellcome in aoe xp farm",

i completely rofl for some minuts with this. Na, kidding, no problem, just for the fun.

all comments/info are wellcome, thanks for saying this, but it doesnt worth.

Reasons, you have to wait for dagger mastery spam, and anyway the bonus is crap.

you spam 7 skills and u get no mana. and the xp bost is from getting 52k xp, to get 56k xp, if you could check, you could see that isnt working.

 

You say about stigma each mob, you are old player with high lvl char, you know about how many mobs we have to kill to make lvl 70+.

Lets talk about 1 DD + 1 buffer box.

Are we comparing debuff stigma on each mob(imagine if you just have 1 pc and you have SE on other client ...), not talking about SE doesnt have haste, berseker

vs

just pp buffs on archer each 20 minuts

and how fast xp each one of them? muahahhahahahahah

 

We keep talking.

​dagger mastery triggers a lot on pve, and with it u have like 95% clarity on your skills, so dunno where u have this "7 skills and no mp", try to play with brain, not just random spam of skills

yeah, sure stigma every mob could be annoying, but come on, is it really to click literally 3 key combos (alt+tab, F1 macro for stigma mob, alt+tab)? i dont think so, if u want to have easy fast xp, sorry, u cannot do that even with mage and 1 buffer

now imagine u are AW, stigma+hex on mob and they must be melting

however if i played dagger, i would be pw, in which case if i wanted considerable fast xp, i would probably have SE+haste pot+BD, switching for stigma and hex from boxes and xp on higher hp mobs, however as i know myself i would just log whole support for it for insane xp same as i do with my archer (and yeah, if u want good xp, it wont be easy, just remember that)

[DuncanFox 2]

I completely agree

[Cyane 230]

For soloing archer is better.

For duo, pp+archer is better than se+dagger

For trio dagger+bd or sws+se works very well. Pp + 2 archer is great. But for parties 3+, aoe parties are the best: tank + recharger + warrior/s